Ep 58 overarousal with Sarah Stremming
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[00:00:00] If you train, compete, or teach dog agility, you're in the right place. Hey there, I'm Megan Foster, creator of Fostering Excellence and Agility. Join me as I share key insights on all things related to dog agility and help find your team's path to excellence and unlock your best year yet. Let's get started.
Hey there, friends.
Today's episode is a special crossover episode with my friend and colleague Sarah St. Trimming of Cog Dog Radio.
Sarah was having some audio issues that I have tried my best to clean up, but I do think that you will be able to hear us both clearly throughout the episode. [00:01:00] It just might not sound as pretty as normal.
All right, let's dive in to talking about arousal. Every agility person's favorite word.
hey Megan. Hey Sarah. We are going to talk today about this, uh, buzzword, arousal, your buzzword. In fact, I'm so sorry. I do, I have to take responsibility. I, I mean, personally for me. You do. In my world, this is alright. All right. All you, um. So, alright, let's define it and, and really specifically, people come to us with problems and the problems they put in the email.
Are they label the problems over arousal most of the time in the, in the email, yes. That we receive or in the form. So arousal though technically is defined as like a state of mental or physical alertness or readiness. [00:02:00] And then for me, I like to throw into the hat another important definition, which is emotional valence.
And the emotional valence is the degree to which a feeling is perceived as pleasant or unpleasant. And the soapbox for me is that the intersection of these two things is what matters more than the intensity of the activation itself, which when people say over arousal, they're saying the intensity of the activation is kind of inappropriate for the task, et cetera.
Right. Wrongly aroused. Yeah. Literally they're saying over which means wrongly. Yeah, incorrectly, right. Yeah. And we're kind of, of the opinion that wrongly aroused or over, over arousal is a misnomer. Like there, there's stuff that gets labeled this way, that's just not [00:03:00] really the thing. It's not about the, the intensity of the activation.
Right. It's not actually arousal that's causing the problem. It's like, like, like you said, the emotional valence attached to it and how that comes out in their behavior. Like it's not, we can't, like arousal isn't a behavior that we're observing. Right? Right. So if we focus on, okay, what are you seeing that you don't like?
Yeah. And we get in on those behaviors, then we have a, a much easier time actually solving. Yeah. And what we, you know, whatever name we give to the emotional state that we think we're perceiving isn't as important as like what we're gonna do about it. So what we're gonna try to do, you and I today is talk more about what we're gonna do about it, but I think it's important to just get some stuff out of the way as far as like what.
Is it that [00:04:00] people are seeing? And I think that what they're seeing that they're labeling over arousal most of the time is that that intersection of emotional valence and arousal is in a high arousal, negative valence space, meaning dog is pretty activated. Dog feels yucky, right? And when dogs are less activated, but feel yucky, we label it other things.
We label it shut down, we label it down, stress, we label it, you know, stuff like that. But basically stuff that falls on that negative valence, that yucky feeling side is stuff that we get emails about. Like, yeah, because it's causing you problems, right? So frustration being, I think one of the biggest ones that people call over arousal, but the dog is just frustrated, right?
And that's just a function of inaccessible reward. So if the dog believes, basically their expectations don't line up with reality. They believe one thing's gonna happen and then another thing happens. Totally. They thought they were gonna get the toy [00:05:00] and they didn't, and that's a bummer. And that sucks.
And then they have feelings about that, right? And if they went, went into the situation, pretty activated, pretty highly aroused, they're gonna tip really easily into that frustration space, like the dog that comes in and they're just like, happy to be here. Not super activated. They don't tip into this frustration space as easily.
Right. I, I think about it like when I am really in the zone doing something, doing like I'm getting going. I'm really just flowing and I'm so productive. And one thing after the other, after the other, after the other, and something interrupts me. I'm way more irritated. Yeah. Oh my God, I'm such a jerk. I'm just like, Ooh, I could just really, um, have some poor behavior.
Mm-hmm. But if I'm, you know, just kind of scrolling Facebook, doing whatever, I'm not doing anything. I'm not [00:06:00] focused on anything. I have no outcome in mind. I'm way like, oh sure I can go do that now. Do you wanna interrupt my plans? I didn't have any fine. Whatever. There's not that like exactly. I'm not as easily irritated by that.
And that's how they like, that is the best example. That's how, yeah. And they, so basically anytime they think you're gonna pay them or they think you're gonna tell them the next thing and you don't Yeah, they, you can see these behaviors, crop up information is highly reinforcing. It's, and I would say for the dogs that we specifically, like for sports, it is extremely reinforcing like the dogs who like to build the chain in their own head and have the entire, like you've seen, I mean the, the perfect example is the bo crawl in the start line.
And the, the start is actually the jump that's away from the course and there, but there's a tunnel behind them and [00:07:00] they're like, there's no possible way that I could jump away from this tunnel. They're like, I know they want, they're like, the equipment, they're like, they're like, I've already written the course in my head.
Thank you very much. Yes. Like they're, the types of dogs are doing that are the most pissed without information. Yeah, because they, yeah. I mean chronically, they're probably not being reinforced for making up their own. Decisions. Bingo. Yep. Yep. So then they wanna, they're not exactly, they're not allowed to make up their own mind, but then you don't tell them what to do and come on.
The only logical response here is frustration. Yeah. Or anger. And frustration and anger are really tightly linked. If we're looking at our colorful emotions wheel, you know, they're like hanging out near each other like it's. Anger though for me is one that I've been more freely talking about in dogs. And I think, and like early, early in my career I was kind of told that that's a human emotion.
Yeah. Um, and [00:08:00] like you don't get to say that they're angry as if, as if it were only a human emotion. I think that's attached to us thinking that it's an a not okay emotion to feel. Mm-hmm. As we were all kind of raised. So actually it's a natural, normal. Biologically healthy, normal emotion. And so of course they also feel it.
What I see in my clientele is, um, kind of two different things with anger is that there's situational and conditioned anger. And this can also happen with the frustration or basically any of the feelings that are happening that you're labeling over arousal can be conditioned or situational. Um, so for me, like for instance, you and I have driven quite a few places together.
If you are navigating me and you screw it up, I don't actually get mad at you because I have no history of you doing it badly, like none. And actually usually we're both the kind of person that, like we're already running the [00:09:00] navigation, like we're not navigating each other because that's just who we're as people.
But like if there was a piece of information I needed and you miss it and don't tell me, and then you give me that information and I'm driving, I might be situationally frustrated, like if we're late, like if I'm already pressed in some way, but. I've got another friend who I literally will not allow me to navigate, but to who I will not allow to navigate me in the car because the last time she did, like, we both just wound up crying because I was so mad at her because she missed like three different terms.
She was, thought it was funny. So she was like, you know, she's a jerk. It's fine. Um, and we were late to a thing that was important to me and so like, it was, it just ends right there. The agility dogs that show up in my clientele, usually, like by the time they get to me. Yeah. That's the situation. They've got conditioned anger to this.
Like you step onto the course, they're, they show up pissed, they show up up, they show up, show up. Fire [00:10:00] arousal, negative valence. Yeah. And I, I guess that's like the biggest difference, I, I would say between like a little bit of frustration that shows up in your training session. Like it started really great.
Something unexpected happened. Now maybe both of you are frustrated and then there's that, the moment they see agility equipment, all that's wrong. They go into a place. Yeah. And you can't get them outta it. Yeah. And people say they're just really highly aroused by agility. Right. And that's just, and not quite usually.
That ain't it. And we both run dogs who are very excited, very activated by agility for sure. But we would not label them over aroused or, I love your phrase, wrongly aroused. No, never. Because we're, there's, it's, it's not problematic for us because it's not in that negative ENT space. It's not anger. Right.
Not frustration. [00:11:00] And then another thing that I think you see a ton 'cause you actually teach agility, whereas I don't, I work with behavior problems and a lot of those dogs do agility, but like. A lot of stuff that shows up for you is just the dog's just not prepared for what you're asking. Totally. They, the, their skills are not to a high enough level to function at high arousal, let alone high arousal, negative valence, right?
So if your baseline skill level is pretty good. Yeah, and the relationship of training is pretty good. Positive valence. A dog that experiences a tiny bit of frustration can pop right back into positive valence really quickly and continue if their overall progressing. Yeah. If their overall conditioning to this situation, to you, to the sport, to the what, whatever is good.
Yeah. They can cut, they can come [00:12:00] right back. Totally. And I, I also work with a lot of dogs that are beautifully trained. They have fantastic skills in training, and then we only have trial only problems that unfortunately do get labeled again with a arousal problems be mm-hmm. Probably because there are things in the environment that the dog is not prepared for.
Um, huge one is being able to rest. During competitions. I know, I know that I, I could put a quarter into you and you could just go off. Go off, but I am talking a lot with people about how they, the dogs aren't resting in between runs and so they're actually getting worse over the weekend. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
They're not kind of acclimating to the environment because they don't know how to Yep. Relax and recover in the competition [00:13:00] environment. Yep. Big deal. And most of them, their daily life, their person goes to work and they sleep. Their daily life is a lot of sleep. And then they get thrown into this, this like really acute state of sleep deprivation and asked to perform at extremely high levels in the most distracting environment.
Correct. And so that. Leads to the next, like lack of preparedness that I see is they aren't sure which distractions to do what with like, so they're constantly filtering information that they don't know what to do with. Like, what do I do about that dog? That's. Thrashing its toy in the corner. What do I do about that handler that's very, um, vocal and says every single cue, four or five, six times, and they're very exciting.
And so the dogs are constantly taking in [00:14:00] information that they don't know how to filter, and then they're also not sleeping. And we're gonna talk in a minute about the fact that also a lot of them aren't eating. Right. They might not even be drinking water when they get into that. And then, and then you, you layer on that the handler might also not be prepared for any of this.
Yeah. So then the cues that the handler is giving the dog might be different mm-hmm. Than they are in training or based on context. Are you running this not for competition or are you running this for real? Yep. Are you currently running it clean? Or have you already? Yep. Faulted and now you're this. Yeah.
Is this functioning under a different set of rules? Is this a trial where your goal is? Get these qualifiers that you, that you need? Or is this a trial where your goal is test a couple skills you've been trained like? Exactly. I mean, we [00:15:00] like the person also needs to be extremely clear on what they are doing.
And what I always like to say is, only one of you is allowed to be a shit show and that that card should be available for your dog to take if they need to take it. So it probably really can't be you. Something that is a, an absolute soapbox. Of us, you, uh, have like really attended the revival and are a full born again fitness person right now.
Yeah. Is that physical fluency is lacking for a lot of these dogs. A lot of the dogs who we have labeled that have arousal problems actually are just not fit enough to do what you're asking. And they mentally are desperate to do it and they physically cannot do it. And that is what you're seeing. Yeah, I'm seeing quite a bit of it and like again, yeah, I could go off on an entirely separate episode just for this, I think because it's, [00:16:00] it's kind of been, it's been my most recent like red pill moment, as you would call it, that if the training plan is solid.
And you've been applying it well and consistently and you're using the right motivators and you're not making progress. There is something Yeah. Making that impossible for the dog. And so my personal experience with Sprint was about, uh, the quality of her turns and how, how much she would collect into a turn.
And part of that is a thousand percent her temperament. Um. As we've been discussing, if she were an Olympian, she's a ski jumper, she goes fast, jump along. Absolutely. Like that is who she's, and she win everything and she, she would be the fastest and she jumped the longest. Yes. That, I mean, that is just who she is.
I never had to work on going in a straight line or obstacle commitment. Like she [00:17:00] just is very good in that way. So yes, obviously. A part of me is like, this is just who she is, blah, blah, blah, blah. But I'm pretty good at this training thing. Yeah, I think you're right. Yeah. Yeah. So I knew there was something missing and when I really, really like went all in into the fitness and conditioning.
The improvements are small, but they're there and they're, they're very. Impactful. Like they make a huge difference in how she moves her body. Mm-hmm. And I see a lot less of that frustration, desperation, like, I'm trying so hard to do what you want, but I just can't. Uh, and she, she also developed a ton of ways to compensate.
As we do try body. Yeah, exactly. So like as said, the motivation was there, but the [00:18:00] physical fluency wasn't accessible to her. And so a hundred percent, they all need a very good fitness and conditioning plan and preferably professionalize on them. Absolutely. Um, shout from the rooftops and we also, we both, I think it's safe for us both to plug Canon Conditioning coach right here, right now.
Absolutely. Yes. And hi third wife. You're probably listening. Um, and so the, you want a fitness professional on board. You don't have to like, it all depends on goals. It all depends on your dog as an individual, how much. Kind of resources, you put that direction. But we both feel really strongly that doing sports at any level, there should at least be somebody's hands or eyes, or preferably both if you can, on the dog who knows what they're looking at.
And there aren't that many people who know. And so, you know, ask around, find [00:19:00] out who other agility people are working with, whose dogs look good. It's really important to do. And basically. If you are seeing errors that especially get worse over time, or especially get worse under what you're calling arousal, look to the fitness.
And this to me is directly related to what I've been screaming from the rooftops and behavior work for the last 20 years of my life, which is when dogs are behaviorally imbalanced, they're probably imbalanced other places, like their wellness is just not there. You need to look to their overall health.
With our sport dogs, what that means is they, they really need to be really well conditioned, and you would understand that if it was you running the dog walk and you jumping the turns and turning, you would understand how, how fit they need to be, but. [00:20:00] You know, you might, you might not. So it's something to definitely get into and try.
But the other wellness stuff that I see being dismissed is like, uh, the big, the big one for me is gastrointestinal health. Mm-hmm. Like the so many agility dogs, people, the dogs get diarrhea or vomiting on a trial weekend and they go, well, it's, and I go, oh, okay. So Tuesday and Wednesday this week, I want you to feed those treats, feed the same amount you would over a trial weekend.
Guess how many times the dog has had GI distress from the treats? At home when they slept all day. Zero, zero times. It's not a problem. Uh, yeah. So diarrhea and vomiting not normal. Even if the dog has extra treats or even if you know, of course they eat maybe some different food. Also, if you really think that's the thing, feed them normal food at the trial.
Just use their normal Yeah, meals. Just use for the trials or you, or use something bland or whatever. Just looking to these things. So the GI health is a really, really big [00:21:00] one. And it's not just on trial weekends, like they should have, they shouldn't be vomiting or having diarrhea like as a normal, as part of their normal life.
Like this is actually something to really dig into. They should also like food, oh, can we just say it louder for the people in the back if they don't want to eat, that's not normal. It's not normal. They should like food. They should like food. They should want food. It's not normal for them not to want food.
Sorry. And nutrition. Nutrition is a big deal. There's no one size fits all. Trust me, if there was, I'd be telling you exactly what it is, but it absolutely there isn't. And I do see a lot of agility dogs who are overweight and underweight, like I see. I think the trending is more towards underweight. I see skinny agility dogs.
Yeah. Like a little too often. Well, probably because they're, they're not eating normally. They're not eating normally. The person knows they need to stay lean anyway. Right. [00:22:00] I am thinking back to dogs that I knew forever that like I put my hands on 'em and I was just, and I would just go, oh, this dog's just skinny.
They're not ripped. They're not like they, they are just skinny. So skinny is not goals like it is. You want them to be well muscled. Right. Also, you want them to carry like, you know, my personal soapbox is that if they get sick and they drop a pound or two, you need that not to be catastrophic. Totally. So they need to have, they need to have a pound or two on them.
Like, I mean, it depends on how much their overall body weight is, but like. Like, I know that sprint. Way too easy of a keeper. You like she Oh my gosh, that Oh my gosh. Hard. She's a hard keeper. I dunno if I said that right. I don't know if, no. Yeah. She's a really hard keeper. I, I said it the wrong direction.
She drops weight fast and easy. Yes. She just burns through a lot of [00:23:00] calories. Yeah. Just breathing. Shes, she eats more, she eats like a dog on the Iditarod. Yeah. And we're not even exaggerating 'cause I looked at their diets to tell you what I thought. You might try feeding her. Exactly. So she, she eats a lot.
Yeah. Like so much, so much more than any dog I've ever had. Thinking really hard about nutrition. Thinking really hard about GI health. These are really smart things to do. And then my other, we'll just kind of like run through them because you guys have to think about them. And then we'll move on to like, what are we actually gonna do if they're itchy?
That's also not normal, right? Um, on that, if your dog, you know, like cyto point's an amazing thing, but needing it every couple of months is not an amazing thing, right? If they're itchy, they have skin irritation, they have allergies, things like that. Like those are things to dig into. The number of dogs I get in for behavior work who, if we actually solve those [00:24:00] problems, the behavior problems go away, is too many of them.
So you gotta think about that again, back to like how easily it is to go from positive to negative a. So you're in higher reality, don't feel, and then, yep. And then you also don't feel well and you're trying to do this thing that you really love and then you're not given information that you need. Yeah.
It's going be, I honestly think about, I think about moments that I had on course where I really care about agility. It activates me. I would like to do it right. I would like to do it well. And I also have chronic pain that can be worse on some days than others. I, you know, I've got like a laundry list of like afflictions that we could talk about.
But the point being, if I am in pain and it's sunny or hot out and I care about this thing and I, [00:25:00] maybe my physical disabilities stop me from getting somewhere and the dog doesn't have the training to make up for it, I'm gonna have a huge swing into that negative valence space. Or like if you walk the course wrong, oh my God.
Which, trust me, classically, you do, you already, you already had a pretty big reaction to that and you're not, how many times have I done it? And then, uh, literally I'm here just chilling with my friends. We're just chilling, having a call. Exactly. So think about that for them. And then, and then just neurologic pain, musculoskeletal pain.
Like, these are things that, again, somebody smart needs to have their hands on your dog and, and their eyes on your dog. And like if your friend, who's a longtime dog, person who's got their hands and eyes on a lot of dogs, point something out to you. Don't take it personally. Go check it out. Don't take it personally.
Go check it out. And then I broken eyes. Have you talked about this before? I [00:26:00] don't. You know, I don't know. Megan has, how long's it been? They gotta move their body. You guys about decompression. I know, I know, I know. It's really hard to, for people to know, you know, because I don't say it enough right now.
This is actually your buzzword. Yeah, that's true. This one decompression, hundred percent adequate, adequate exercise, adequate decompression time. The nervous system actually has to be given a chance to balance itself If you are just constantly spiking and spiking and spiking you, none of these systems I just talked about can operate right under that kind of stress.
Everything will get worse. Everything is broken. You and I have traveled together like it is no small feat. To make sure, make sure that the dogs and the humans all get what they need in a trial day when you are traveling or even if you're not traveling, it's so hard. It's actually a a lot and it's really, [00:27:00] in my opinion, there's kind of no excuse, like it's just you, like you.
This could be, this is a whole other podcast. I'm just talking about values, but essentially you and I both make sure that the dogs have time to move their bodies outside. You know, lower arousal. Yeah. It's a series of lifestyle changes and choices and just, you know, maybe it's not doing the first run of the day.
It's a big one. We like to choose. I love to choose that one. Love to choose that one. Um, and then also like when, that's not when the schedule allows for us to choose that one. Right. And then when it's not, we're up an hour earlier or we're skipping dinner and we're having not as good of a time for ourselves to make.
Yeah. Well that's the thing is it's, it's, we just make the sacrifices where we need to make them. Exactly. If it's not going out to dinner, it's not. And [00:28:00] we're, you know, I'm, we're just, it's just about choices that you make. So. Okay. We have talked a little bit about what do you do about it? 'cause when you talk about wellness, you have to talk a little bit about like, and here's how, here's the repair.
But we're, let's really get into what we're gonna do about it. So the first one really is the fitness piece. We kind of said that, but basically like. If you aren't already doing a targeted professional fitness program for a sport dog, let this be your cue to do it. And don't skip the foundations of said, oh my God, fitness program.
Don't skip the foundations. It's so much harder it don't, it don't pretend that your dog is trained enough that you can just jump into more advanced versions. Because correct posture and correct handler mechanics and correct reward, [00:29:00] uh, placement makes all of the difference. Yeah. In everything. Yeah. Skip foundations in everything we do.
And so skipping to the sexy looking stuff, but when the foundation stuff doesn't look perfect, not a good idea. No, no. You are likely just leaning in on how they already compensate and how they're already, that's what you're doing, figuring things out because they'll do it with the body and if you're not sure, and if you're not sure, get somebody's eyes on your foundations.
Exactly. Rather than trying to get their eyes on your advanced stuff. Yeah. First get their eyes on your foundation. And the really, I think the really good professionals are insisting on that. They're saying she do this and this. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Um, um, again, that's with all of your training, don't assume that it's a problem with the advanced stuff.
Yeah, it's usually not [00:30:00] much further back than that. It's usually much further back. A lot easier. And for my, for my behavior, folks listening. This is still true for, for you guys. The number of dogs now in behavior work that I am sending into work with a fitness professional is a lot of them, a lot of reactive dogs, like dogs that are barky, lunge on leash, like they actually just have no idea how to walk on a leash without being completely torqued and in a weird position and causing themselves pain and discomfort.
And it's causing problems. And really, you know, behavior professionals for a long time have said if the dog's pulling on leash, they're more likely to have a reaction. So train them not to pull on leash. And I'm gonna go, what? Let's back that up. Actually, it's because what's their body doing when they're pulling into a leash?
Their body's doing weird stuff when they're pulling into a [00:31:00] leash. If you actually teach them to walk, I balance near you on a loose leash. That in and of itself, a lot of these dogs physically cannot do it, have never done it, and they don't have the fitness to do it. I mean, I'm not surprised, but like, wow.
Yeah. I mean it's, and it's the same as like you like to walk fast. Yeah, I like to walk fast. There's a reason you like to walk fast. Walking slow is hard. Slow is hard standing still is physically impossible. With our bodies standing still and walking slow are physically really hard. And what you're asking the dog to do when you're asking them not to pull on leash is walk slow.
Because for them they wanna move so much faster than you do. Mm-hmm. And so of course they get all torked and twisted position and frustrated and they're already pissed. So then of course that thing comes over. They're gonna scream at it. So this matters for them here too. So just fitness for everybody.
Scream it from the rooftops. Quality fitness, starting really, really good foundations. Really important. If [00:32:00] you perceive that it's a conditioned frustration or anger response to the actual sport, like the dog just comes out of the gate screaming at you, comes outta the crate in the car, screaming at you.
Yeah, you gotta repair it. And this. This is not fun, but it is effective. We have to take you out of the context. Yeah. It doesn't happen in context. I, yeah, I, I remember the very first time I hired you to teach a seminar and mm-hmm. How to you, you know, you're, you're teaching worked up 1.0 and of course you're making it so that none of the dogs are in this anger space and you know, how many.
Times you get, well, not doing the, the, they're not doing any of the problems. Yeah. How are we solving go? Yeah, that's exactly, that's the point. That's what we want. They, [00:33:00] they cannot continue to rehearse it if you're trying to repair it. Yeah, you have to remove anytime you've got problematic. Anytime you've got a history of repetition, of a problematic emotional response or behavioral response, which by the, those are the same thing, you have to remove the learner, whoever it is, you, the dog, anybody from the context.
So take a little break, take a little fast from the thing, and then ease back in making sure. You have put speed bumps in place that you have, that you now know how to recognize your orange flag so that you don't skate right past it and hit a red flag. It is so, so important to do this repair by, take your break, and then when you come back in, come back in armed with the understanding of what it is that pisses them off.
[00:34:00] Yeah. And what it, what it was that caused us in the first place. Something that you say all the time that I repeat to my clients all the time, especially when they're agility people, is that nobody gets anything wrong on purpose. Like hundred percent the dog is not getting it wrong on purpose. And then really importantly, one of the therapy sessions I had this last week with my, one of my clients, Hey, neither are you, just by the way, right, the handler, the handler's not getting it wrong on purpose.
And when the instructor. Treats the dog or the person, like they're getting it wrong on purpose. We're already in a losing battle. Yeah, we can't, we can't go forward from there. Um, no one gets it wrong on purpose. So this like taking a break and then coming back. I also want to say that there like some suggestions, find some neutral locations [00:35:00] that don't how to come back in.
Exactly. So important, find some neutral locations that don't have these negative feelings attached to them for either of you. Yeah. Because you will come in feeling more anxious if you go right back to where Yeah. The problems were occurring. Um, so I, I've certainly had people go to very neutral locations that don't have any context of agility.
And if their skills look really good there, then they're allowed to add a jump to that location. Yeah. So we, we very slowly bring the context of agility into our newly developed Yeah. Positive valence feelings about training. But if we just about training, about working with, about training, about working about, yes.
Agility in general and now we can kind of mesh these beautiful skills that you do [00:36:00] have with the right emotional valence. But I think there's be, if we just go back into the deep end, basically, one of, I like to say, if you're drowning, the first thing God do is get outta the pool. Get out. Get out, get outta the pool, you get outta your group class where these problems were built.
Yep. You stop entering trials where those problems were solidified. Yeah. And you start training the dog other stuff, other places. And if you're going, what the hell do I train them without agility? Honestly, that's part of the problem. If you, if you have that question at all, that's part of the problem because Okay, that means we're missing some foundations.
We're missing some. Specifically probably reward, uh, strategies that need that can go get trained somewhere else. And then I love, um, I'll, I have people go take a nose work class. Yes. A rally class. Yes. Go do something else. [00:37:00] Go, go. Remember that you guys like each other, some other place away from agility.
Away from agility. Yeah. And just like build the other sports can also allow us to layer in different levels of intensity. So like nose work being the least environmentally intense and like the most soothing for the dog. Like they can still be hot to go over nose work, like, believe me. Yep. She is. But it's not a high arousal environment.
It's not noisy. It's not a lot of people. It's not. A lot of, it's not, and it does not require the same physicality that could bring these fitness elements into play too. And so, and sometimes even once they do become fit, they're expecting maybe that their body's gonna struggle. Yeah. And so then you're kind of throwing that into the mix.
Whereas with nose work, if you're making sure that. [00:38:00] You're not on slick floors and stuff like that, like you are, or wearing, or like Right, right. Things like that. All of those things. But I also like, but then you can work up like rally little bit more physically intense, but not as there's obedience.
There's, there's gonna be a jump here and there. There, yeah. There's gonna be stuff happening. So we're layering in more physic, physical, um. Impact and also a little bit more intensity, like there's more movement. Mm-hmm. There's more handler cues mm-hmm. To respond to. So there's more responsibility on the handler to be like clean and clear.
Mm-hmm. Um, and then I think for some dogs, things like barn hunt is like another nice split. Love it. Yeah. Are amp a little bit more for that if they like it. Yes. If they're intense about it. It's not as intense as agility. It's not But the environment, they're gonna be [00:39:00] around other dogs. Yes. Who are feeling a little bit more intense.
Exactly. Whereas nose work, it's very clean. You Yes. So absolutely. I, I have found myself with a few agility dogs in that barn hunt space and we can get a lot done. In, in that split, that's a lot easier than finding the perfect agility class or how to use a fun run, or, my gosh, spending so much money to do not for competition, trying to get the dog back into that same right intensity level with a good head space.
So there's, there's just a lot we can do to repair these feelings. There is. But it does require that you build it back up slowly and you assume that they're right whenever they do anything. Yes. And so you don't ask them the same question repeatedly. That's one of the fastest ways to just anger Tom. I mean, a hundred [00:40:00] percent.
Believe them. Believe them when they answer your question the first time. Yeah. And get curious about like, why did they think that answer and go and go, oh yeah, exactly. Go. Thank you for telling me. How can I be more clear? Right. And if there's a way that you could be more clear, like maybe you legit did just say the wrong thing or do use the wrong arm, or blah, blah, blah.
Exactly, because they're having to filter out everything all the time. So can we please just consider what they thought, think about what they thought? I love telling people, and I love reminding myself this when I go into a training scenario with my dog, like they're going to give you the answer they know The first time you ask.
Yeah, that is the most important piece of information you're gonna get is what did they do the first time you asked? And then if you go, oh, alright, I asked that wrong, I recognize that I asked that wrong. I'm gonna ask it correctly now. Fine. That's a lot. [00:41:00] That's gonna be quite a bit of the time to be, especially if you got good instructors going, eh, actually you were a day late in the buck.
Short. Like, let's you, you wanna start initiating this term here? Not here. Like maybe that. Or it's if it is a situation where you go, I really think I did that right, and you really thought it meant this, so I'm going to, and if I really don't understand, that's where I'm gonna pivot. I'm gonna work on something else.
I'm gonna review my video later and try to figure this out. I'm not gonna try to figure it out right then if I do have ideas about it that I wanna play with, and I feel like I can do that without pissing the dog off. Then I'll, and that sometimes depends on, you know, the dog and your history and whatever, but it's basically don't ask them repeatedly and how aware.
Right. And how aware are you of all the possible answers Yeah. Yeah. In the situation. Yeah. Um, the, [00:42:00] that in particular is coming up a lot in the conversations I'm having surrounding like errorless learning procedures. And not being able, and the handler not feeling like they can do it. And that's mostly because when you start a sequence, do you really know every possible answer that could come from the sequence, right?
Or if you're training, we pull entries, what are all the possible choices? Mm-hmm. Or if you are training some verbal cue, what are all the possible choices? And is the correct one, the most obvious, right? And that's either, and then based on your setup and also the learning history. But if you are not aware of it and you have this huge learning history for them, choosing the wrong thing over and over and over again.
Mm-hmm. You won't be able to reach this like [00:43:00] airless learning procedure idea. And make progress, right? So there's just a lot. It's just a lot. And basically for me, what I tell people is when the dog get something wrong in your mind, go and just reward them anyway. And then go, how am I gonna make, am I gonna pivot?
Yeah. Or am I going to make this easier? And the kind of the two ways that I tell them to make it easier is I'm like, either go back to kindergarten. Like what is the kindergarten level of this skill? Or use a pre placed reward to show them like I like. And sometimes those are the same answer. And so I like to just kind of basically, unless people have an instructor that can really support them in this, which I find that most people don't have like a real life in person person telling them right there.
I try to give them things in their back pocket that they can start to make decisions on their own. And this is how I like to have them think. Now it [00:44:00] doesn't make sense for you to go back like 20 steps in your training. Exactly. But if you can think like what's three steps ago? Mm-hmm. Can I back up that far and ask the question here then fine.
And sometimes that is pre place reward. Sometimes like there are ways to do it. And if we're talking about a behavior situation, if we're talking about like a. Again, a bark lunge on leash situation. That thing you just said about, do you know all of the possible answers in this scenario? I'm gonna say most people don't.
They know either the dog is gonna scream at the end of the leash or they don't scream at the end of the leash. No, but there's so much that happens between not screaming and screaming so much in between there so much in between. Exactly. And so we need, like, the more we think about that, so part of being a really clear trainer is spending more time on the planning and thinking [00:45:00] than the actual doing.
Doesn't matter what it's, it doesn't matter what it's, there's not gonna be that much dog training. There's gonna be quite a lot of video review thinking, planning, discussing with whoever helping you. Because when you do plan well, the session goes well and you don't actually need it to take very long. No two minutes there, there are no, there's no secret to this other than when it's really well planned and you have considered all of the options and how you will respond if they do a, versus how you will respond if you, if they do B.
Mm-hmm. The session just moves along on its own pretty quickly and generally is very productive. But I, I, I've finally learned that if I haven't planned it, I might as well just not train. I might as well just go for a walk because free styling I know right, is just garbage for [00:46:00] me. It's not gonna end well.
It's not gonna be productive. It's not even gonna feel good, even if like, it doesn't even, she gets rewarded for everything. It feels meh. Like, we've certainly had times when we didn't, we're just, we're meeting up because it's Saturday, but we don't really have anything planned and we're not really feeling it.
We're kind of, we should have just gone for a walk. Should have just gone sushi or Exactly. Just straight to sushi instead, like, just go eat sushi and drink. We did the things because we felt like we should, um, like we train the dogs because we felt like we should. Uh, but those not our best. Yeah. Going for a walk is, the SAT is more sat, I mean, is the satisfying answer for them.
Like we feel like we need to satisfy them. We go for the walk, then we go for the sushi. And like this is, we're getting into like, how do we avoid getting into this mess? And the way you get, you avoid getting into this mess. You spend way more time on the planning than on the training. Yep. And you [00:47:00] ask yourself really seriously.
About these things we've talked about, the wellness, the physical preparedness, your fluency in the game, and then I know you have this conversation with somebody at least every week you gotta ask if your group class is working for you. Yeah. The the group class situation is obviously very difficult. I.
Lived it. I did it for a really long time and mm-hmm. It took a long time to kind of get to a spot where I felt like I was giving everyone what they needed, and it is pretty hard to sustain honestly, especially if you have high overhead costs. Anyways, I feel bad. I like, I feel for. In person, delete instructors.
So just don't mishear me when I say that all group [00:48:00] classes have prerequisite skills that are not talked about. They're not known like how many advertisements do you see or how many things have you signed up for that say no requirements, like the dog is this old, they can come. And I get that you have to get people in the door for said foundation classes.
However, if the dog can't relax in that environment, or the dog can't relax because there's six other dogs in the room with them or they can't eat because of all these things we've been talking about, they're missing prerequisite skills to group classes. Mm-hmm. They can't rest. They can't rest. I mean, it goes all the way back to can they ride in the car?
Exactly. Like there are, I mean, it happened every single time I started a, a group of foundation students. They all kind of came with like, [00:49:00] generally they're not, it's not a group of. Super high arousal dogs. They're just dogs that with people that want to do agility, and this is gonna be great. By about week six, they can no longer rest because they don't want to.
The resting is stupid and boring, and then we have to pivot the entire class to focusing on resting. But then the humans don't wanna do that either, and it's all very complicated when it gets that way. So the. Like just being able to move around in the training space. When I am watching people work with their dogs in group classes, I see young dogs get quite frustrated with that situation.
Mm-hmm. Um, mm-hmm. And that's when like the problem behaviors come in where they get distracted or they're visiting or they're running away with their toy or. All of the above, the, the problem behaviors start to creep in [00:50:00] because the prerequisite skills aren't missing and they're generally not exciting.
So they're also not being taught. No, and that's so Chicken of the Egg and I, I feel for the instructors as well, we're like, well, nobody's gonna take that class. And I'm like, yeah, I know. This is why I had to go to a city teach workup and then be invited back to teach Clarity rules. Yes. Which. Should be like the pre-req seminar for the worked up seminar, but nobody would come to it.
Yeah. And that's also just I think, again, another topic that we could go really deep into for the instructors, because I also always felt that way. Like people just won't come back. And I used to like protect myself, be like, trust me, there's a method to the madness. And finally one student was like, Megan, we trust you.
We wouldn't be here otherwise. Just like if you are Exactly. Once I teach one thing, well, that's why it was always like something, it was whatever the, like once I taught one thing in a [00:51:00] city, they're like, they wanted hear the rest. They wanted to hear rest. Yes, yes. Really speaking. If they're paying you, they want to hear what you have to say.
So yeah, you, you can, if, if you present it as this is normal and this is what we train our agility dogs to do. I think it should be totally done that way. It should be it. Take it. This is, this is be like, this is agility. It's walking. This is agility. Yes. It's down Stay. It's crazy. It's downs stay. It's understand that.
I'm gonna leave your food on that table. We're gonna walk over here. Yes. Ask you for a couple behaviors and we're gonna go back over to the table. It, it's resting between your terms. Yeah. It's like, and you do this, I mean, you help instructors build. That works. I work a lot on this. Um, and it, yeah, it's, it feels a little scary because it's not as exciting for the people, but also they can go find that.[00:52:00]
If they, they can. Yeah. I think here's the thing, they will come back to you eventually with problems, right? So I, I kind of all always say like, all roads lead here eventually. So like, it's fine. And I know that can feel scary when your livelihood depends on it, but I am here to tell you that it is okay, um, to set up your.
In-person classes. Yeah. The way that you think that they should be done, based on the skills you want the dogs to have, not about what's the most exciting, what's gonna keep the people most engaged. Yeah. And then, and you know, of course again, we're getting into a other podcast 'cause it's all connected, right?
Like, but then it is, you know, then it's just a matter of deliver. Then it's a matter of, and then this class doesn't need to be, doesn't actually need to be boring. It can be great. Totally. And when the people are seeing it be effective [00:53:00] and they're seeing the results and they're seeing their relationship grow with this dog, and then they go into their first class and they're like, oh, everything was so easy because I had the prerequisite scales.
Yeah. Ooh, now, now you got it. Now you got it. I think the problem with the prereq types of classes that start to happen is that folks. I think they need to do a lot of explaining of why. Yeah, that's, and actually should just shut up and tell them, no, just do it. Oh, I'm, I'm think like hybrid model of like four week online sort of thing is like mm-hmm.
Here are the prereqs for the class. And then you roll into like, yeah. Mm-hmm. I'm just, you can get it done other ways. That's what we're saying. That's what we're saying. There's lots of ways to get it done. Uh, and so I guess like the solve for the person, uh, even though I'm also coaching the instructors would be like, train these prerequisite skills before you enter your first class.
And it might mean that your dog is a little bit older before you go into class, but also I think [00:54:00] that's best for everyone anyways. Yeah, pretty much. Or their brains for, you know, them better. You actually have things that they want. Right. They like working with you already. Like there's just so much that we can do before we put them in the situations that are over facing them immediately, and then we can avoid being in this, in this situation.
Because the bottom line is that most of the dogs that get labeled over aroused were. Acquired on purpose for their intensity and their high activation level. And now you say that they're wrongly rous, right? That it's a problem for them? For you? Yeah. That they are, yeah. Doing what you want them to do.
Like I, I guess like maybe Sprint would've been, maybe would've just loved being activated by everything all the time [00:55:00] and just like, ugh, like, you know, everything's moving. Like she, maybe that would've been super satisfying for her, but then doing agility would not have been super satisfying for her.
Right. And easily frustrating. Easily not fun. Yeah, easily not fun, because nothing would've been fast enough for her if she's just looking, if she's always, yeah. Highly activated by everything. But we planned for that because you knew it going in. Like I knew it. Going in when you first rodeo, you acquired her on purpose.
You put a lot of intent. Into the acquisition of this puppy, which is true for truly a lot of people. Like at this point in agility, agility's been going on a long time. There are a lot of Scorp dogs out there in circulation and people [00:56:00] are like, you bought it 'cause you wanted it to be fast and want the toy and want to do the things.
And like all of that stuff is just. They're closer to that high activation level, which means they're closer to flipping into a negative feelings space. The lower your activation level, the further away you are from having yucky feelings. Yeah, like if you were just chilling on your couch watching your favorite show and like everything's good, you turned off your phone.
Like what? Like you're just pretty far from something really upsetting you. But when you are running a course, it really matters to you or on your way to a trial that if you don't get this double Q today, you're not going to national. Like things like that. You're close to something really pissing you off.
Yeah. And when you get a dog that has big feelings and big cares, which is [00:57:00] what you want for the game, most likely. Then they're just closer to that, to flipping into those negative feelings. And it's time to respect that and just go, yeah, I bought it like this and I'm gonna respect that. I bought it like this, and I'm going to do my best to help you stay in a place where you feel good.
Yeah, that
and that's a good place to wrap it up, to be honest. Yeah, I think. I think so.
Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, I really appreciate some feedback. You can leave me a review, engage on social media or share this with a friend. I hope you'll be back to listen to my next episode. In the meantime, you can find all of my offers on my website, fx agility.com. Happy [00:58:00] training.
