[00:00:00] If you train, compete, or teach dog agility, you're in the right place. Hey there, I'm Megan Foster, creator of Fostering Excellence and Agility. Join me as I share key insights on all things related to dog agility and help find your team's path to excellence and unlock your best year yet. Let's get started.
All right, today I have back on the podcast Sarah Espinoza Sokal, and we would like to talk to you about puppies. Welcome back to the podcast, Sarah.
Thank you for having me. I am super excited to be here.
too. I think we have a lot of similar ideas when it comes to raising and training and living with [00:01:00] our puppies and eventually our adult dogs, and so I'm excited to talk to you about that today.
Yeah, I think that our perspectives are well aligned.
Agreed. Agreed. So we're just gonna jump in. Um, I've got some questions for you. Of course. So the first one is, you know, why do you choose the puppies that you choose and like, how did you decide that that's the kind of puppy you want?
Yeah, I, one of the first things that's on my mind since I started acquiring puppies for agility is I want to. Stack the odds in my favor as much as possible of bringing home a puppy that's going to grow up to love the sport of agility as much as I do I, so I want to, of course, choose something that that enjoys moving its body that has like a natural propensity for. [00:02:00] Fast movement and, and athleticism and, and sort of an in intrinsic enjoyment of those things nowadays that my agility aspirations also include things like big competitions and air travel and hotels and Airbnbs and, and being all over the country. It's also really important for me to stack the odds in my favor of getting a stable temperament that will take those types of things fairly in stride, because would feel pretty conflicted about asking a dog to do all those things if I felt that it stressed them out in a way that was possibly detrimental for their health and wellbeing.
So I think it can be a hard balance to strike because we are sort of looking. I am looking for sort of for opposite things like a dog that's sensitive, sensitive enough [00:03:00] and fiery enough to have that passion for agility, but also the dog who is resilient enough and stable enough to travel and handle the pressure. I think that is actually a lot of, a lot to ask and we shouldn't, we shouldn't never forget that. That's a lot to ask. And
Yeah.
that's when I, when I was doing, when I was searching for my puppies, both of the kelpies I acquired for agility. Now, those were the two things that were on my mind is I want some fire, I want stability. And I understand that that is, can be a difficult combination to, to acquire.
For sure, and I think a big responsibility. To, you know, do your best to find those things on paper and then kind of [00:04:00] deal with it, whatever you get when you bring it home, and cultivate that balance for yourself that, um, I, I, I personally have a hard time accepting like, oh, that's just genetics. When it comes to behavior, because I think I can influence a lot with the way that I train and nurture things.
Um, and I, I think we agree on that.
Absolutely.
So yeah, it's a big responsibility to kind of accept. I did my best in finding the, the puppy that will bring me these things and now the rest is up to me.
It is a big responsibility. I also view it as a big responsibility just. That I, because I have this desire to have a dog that that has a great passion for agility, that I have brought a bean into my life that has a lot of needs and needs more support than maybe like what I [00:05:00] would've acquired if I was looking for a easy pet. So I do think that is a huge responsibility to take care of them. Obviously I'm always thinking about setting up puppies for success in the sport, I'm also always thinking about setting them up for a healthy, balanced life and the skills they need for that too. Um, yeah, I, there is, I absolutely that there's a lot that we do we can do, that we can take on to help them in both of those areas it is a big responsibility.
Absolutely. So I think that goes really nicely into my next question of, you know, what is your. First priority when raising a puppy. And how does that impact kind of the skills you teach them or the order of the skills that you teach them? [00:06:00] Uh, I guess I'm asking like, do you have a specific recipe?
Oh, I wish I did.
Same. I mean, I knew the answer. Come on.
I will say that my answer to this question is different than it would've been if you had asked me a year ago. Um. If you had asked me this a year ago, I would've said like, my priority is, you know, you, you get to know the puppy that, so that is always the first thing on my mind when I bring a puppy home is that they, I want them to teach me who they are. Um, and that's where I have to start. Obviously building a relationship, like the relationship between us, and then building a joy for training and building that really. Functional relationship with training. the piece that I [00:07:00] would add now a year later after raising my latest puppy is I'm much more, I think there's this fourth piece of nurturing, a stable nervous system that I wasn't really aware of. And I think the reason I wasn't really aware of that was because it did came, come fairly easily with my last puppy and with this most, so let me clear, it came quite easily for Z, who's now seven. And for Spire, she just needed a lot more support and a lot more attention paid to that piece of what I could do. To help her just develop a, a nervous system that could handle more. And uh, that was a big part of the last 10 months I've had with her.
For sure. Um, and just so we can. Break this down and let [00:08:00] this be like a teaching podcast. When you're talking about having like nurturing a more stable nervous system, like what behaviors are you trying to change when you're seeing like an unstable nervous system versus what you're seeing now?
I would say, so just looking at this journey that I've been on with Spire, it was a lot about that. Basic, there were so many triggers in the world that would just like send her down this neural highway into over arousal, basically anything like a, a, a human, a dog, a car, like anything that changed,
Mm-hmm.
that was her default response was this big arousal spike.
And if she happened to be. Off leash, just like completely losing her mind. [00:09:00] Um, so for me, a lot of the last months with her has been about, um, keeping her in situations where the stimulus was like within a level that she could control, you know, like whatever, whatever distance she needed to not just like. into that crazy, crazy over arousal state, um, so that I could start actually teaching her behaviors, like whatever distance she needed so that she could actually think through offering, perhaps looking at me or ignoring the stimulus. That was what I had to give her. I did that answer that question. I'm not even sure.
I think so. I think basically that when, when, when we have a puppy, [00:10:00] if we're not. Seeing behaviors that we would like to select from kind of naturally. So like kind of what you were saying, like Z, sounds like Z. Pretty easily offered eye contact and stillness and didn't have any big overreactions to novel things in her environment.
And so. You could very easily select from what was already available in Z's repertoire versus Aspire didn't come with that. She did not come with things that you wanted to select from. So you had, you had to create that.
Yeah.
You had to build the environment, take her to places, and put her in situations where she could offer you something that you wanted to expand on.
Yeah,
Yeah, that that changes how we would train things. If you have one puppy that can be in a very stimulating environment [00:11:00] right out of the gate versus a puppy that clearly can't be.
Yeah, I often think. looking back at these two dogs that I've raised, Z Inspire, I raised Z in a fairly urban environment. Like I lived in an apartment in, in Midtown Reno, which is like, you know, a little walkable neighborhood, but it's pretty busy. And she thrived from that. And it was a little bit of a challenge.
Like I had challenges come up with her, like, uh, too much interest in cars, but it was all at a workable level where I was able to find. behaviors that I wanted to select from and reinforce. And so she thrived from that experience. No matter how good of a trainer I am, I don't think there's any way I could have raised fire in that environment.
Like
I,
way
I agree and I know exactly what you mean and that that's important to notice that. You know [00:12:00] what, what each puppy brings to the table, we have that responsibility to provide the environment and the skills that they need in order to make progress.
Yeah.
So that means that socialization's gonna look different for different puppies.
And so I'm interested in like, how, how are you currently determining what's best for each individual?
Mm-hmm. Yeah, it absolutely does. I, I think it's very important to really look at how much stress like certain experiences are putting on the puppies, and I think it's important to recognize that even if they aren't. Like scared or, um, sh dis like even if they're not distressed, like it's still a stressful experience for them, [00:13:00] um, to be in a busy environment.
So now I do think that fire is a little bit extreme in how sensitive she was as a baby puppy, but one of the things that I did with her, or adjusted for her. In addition. So first of all, I should say, I made sure to take her to quieter environments. So the big focus, and I think that this is probably really appropriate for a lot of sensitive puppies, is I did focus on novelty like exposure to new environments. I tried to pick environments that were at a level that was appropriate for her. So like a quiet park, like where there might be some people having a picnic in one corner. Um, or I remember I used to take her to Home Depot specifically like right before closing on a Sunday. And like the first few times we went, we only went in the garden [00:14:00] center.
So I mean, it was like really curating those experiences. So that she's getting exposure to novelty, but not being overwhelmed or like thrown into something that she can't handle. But in addition to that, I also, with her, was really, really careful to always have like rest days, like after an outing to Home Depot, the next day would be a quiet day at home. I'm lucky that home for us right now is really quiet. Like we not, we're not gonna see anyone that I don't expect most likely. Um, unless somebody ordered something that came via UPS or whatever, but that's, that's
But yeah, and also life. Like we just deal with those unexpected deliveries.
Yeah. But I, I think the really important thing with, with puppies and adapting your socialization strategy to the puppy that you have [00:15:00] is to really. Look at the puppy's behavior and give them as much agency as you can about the outing. Like be really careful about situations where you are sort of taking their autonomy away, like picking them up instead of having them on the ground where it limits your ability to really read how comfortable they are with things. So. really being sensitive and watching that puppy to see like how they're feeling about the situation. And also respecting like we, like I said earlier, if they're not having a negative experience, they probably would still benefit from having a rest day afterwards for that, for that nervous system to just like decompress from. And by rest day, I don't mean like. Sleep all day, but like exercising a natural environment and without a lot of novel stimulus. Um, I [00:16:00] also think, of course, it's funny to me that I sort of jumped into socialization as the exposure to the environments where, of course I think a lot of people think of socialization as actual social interaction
Yes.
and dogs. Um. I do think this is an area where you do still have to really read the puppy. I am a big believer in the concept that we're always trying to work towards neutrality. So if your puppy is hyper social, want to work them back towards neutrality. If the puppy is shy, we also want to work them nor back towards neutrality. Um. I do think probably what my baseline would be would be like at least 50% ignoring and being ignored at least. But for a puppy that has a lot of value for social interaction, I'm very quick to like move even more towards ignoring [00:17:00] and being ignored and less actual interaction and greetings.
We're on the same page there.
Yeah.
Well, like I think we can still like people and dogs are a part of the environment, so even though. Yes, I, I think I agree with you that people tend to think like socializing is about social interactions, but a big part of their life as a sport dog will be ignoring and being ignored. Um, and, and definitely when you're talking about being in hotels, being in Airbnbs, being in the airport, being on planes, like that focus of neutrality becomes even more important.
Because they, you don't, they don't really need to be excited for a party at the airport because that's not gonna happen. Even if they really like, enjoy that social activity, that's just never gonna happen for them in that context. So [00:18:00] they do need to have that skill, even if they're very social, outside of those areas of their life.
I absolutely agree and I I have seen so much benefit. Aspire's behavior. Just as that value for people and other dogs has sort of come down to like a healthy level over months of teaching her to ignore and be ignored, that now she is actually able to interact a much healthier way. And, um, is something that I have. Had to explain to several people who have commented on that. I have such high standards for her manners, and I am like, to be honest, I'm not a person that really cares about good manners, but because I do care about her being able to walk through an airport one day. It is really [00:19:00] important to me that she actually be comfortable in that environment and, and calm in that environment and that link of that over excitement about the social opportunities. it just doesn't go together.
Yes, exactly. Um, I, I'm, I've also been accused of running a tight ship. Um. But anyone who has had the pleasure of meeting Sprint knows that she doesn't have manners. Like she's all over you if you are one of her chosen humans, and all of my dogs will pummel you. Um, but that isn't their default setting that I want them in.
Um, and is a little bit of a tangent, but I had never flown a dog out of the Chicago airport until recently. And that was, that's a different experience of like, your dog is out of their crate waiting in line and walking around the airport. A lot more than any other airport I've ever been in with a dog [00:20:00] and I, that would've been a lot more stressful for both of us if she had been.
In a hyper social state and didn't know how to turn that off in that moment so that it was, it's just very fresh on my mind since that was recent,
Yeah.
how even, even some, like you, you just don't even, you never know when these things are going to come up and that you need them to just know that this is not a time to be social.
Yeah,
Um, and I, I think this, we talk a lot about like the dog's behavior and things like that, but I really feel like raising puppies this way and being thoughtful about puppies in this way requires a lot of human skills. And so I'm interested in. What human skills are you instilling your in, your students, or what are you talking about?
Like what skills does the [00:21:00] human need to raise puppies this way
That's a great question. I, I definitely think that. From a training perspective,
I.
obviously a lot of importance in learning our nice clean training mechanics for helping introduce puppies to training, but from the socialization and like raising stable nervous system and taking that little bit more thoughtful approach to the whole process of raising a puppy, I think that there are a lot of what might be called like softer skills involved in that. For one, just being really attentive and reading your puppy well. Um, having some patience, like to actually, and even, I think one of the biggest things is to [00:22:00] actually become not quite so reactive ourselves so that maybe when the shit may, might appear to be hitting the fan that we don't panic.
Yes. Only one of us can be a hot mess
Um, and that is, it's, it is hard, especially when you are in a situa because all of us, I think, can very easily be triggered and be a little embarrassed by how our puppy is behaving.
for sure.
Um, and I think it is a real, a skill that you really need to cultivate to sort of take a breath and, and look at what's happening before you respond.
I. Really ask yourself, is this a situation where I can safely allow the puppy to kinda work through this? Or do I need to remove them from this scenario? And also, and I am not perfect at this by any means, but the more stable we can be [00:23:00] in response when our puppy is overreacting, the more, more, the more of a rock we can be for them.
Like, um. There have been many situations with fire in retrospect that I can see that like sheep had an arousal spike and I panicked, and that never, um, it doesn't go well. It's also not the end of the world, but I do think it's important to sort of be aware of that. Constantly be working on your ability to see the things happening in front of you and, and really take a moment to evaluate before you just jump in there and react. I also think. The other sort of form of patience that is required is a little bit more of like the longer term patience of the external pressures that we feel that maybe the [00:24:00] puppy should be doing more than they are, or they should be able to handle things that they can't handle yet Oftentimes. Well, you know, oftentimes those voices just come from inside of our own brains.
sure.
But some of us are lucky enough to also have people, like real people telling us that the puppy should be doing more. Um, and whether it's those internal voices or external voices to really cultivate the ability to s. Stick, stay the course and and respect what the puppy is telling you and, and maintain belief that they will do all the things that you want them to do when they're ready.
I think that that is really hard. It's, it's a real commitment and practice it of self-development.
Yeah, I totally agree. I, I think that, uh, [00:25:00] especially in agility, we really like that immediate gratification and in a lot of the things that we train, we can usually see progress really quickly. But with puppies, they need time to, you know, soak up the lessons. And if you're splitting finely enough, you might not really notice that you're making progress until you are in a situation where they might have previously overreacted and they're fine, and you're ready for the overreaction and they're like.
Fine. And then you realize that, oh, things are okay. Things are working, things are getting better. Um, but it certainly doesn't always feel that way in the moment.
Absolutely. I was just sort of reflecting the other day that when Spire was around eight months, that was sort of, I feel like the lowest low that I've had with her so far because like at that point it just felt like I had been [00:26:00] working really, really hard. For six months and I, there wasn't really a whole lot to show for it. Um, but when those results did start coming through, it was amazing. It just took a long time to actually really see those, those seeds start to bloom a little bit.
Yeah, definitely. I mean, sprint will be four next week and I still find myself in situations where I'm like, I didn't know she could do that. I Okay. Look at you, look at you generalize those skills. You go girl. But like, so I, I, I, um, am look, I don't know if I am looking forward to the day where I'm no longer surprised at how well regulated she is now as an adult.
So, uh, I hope you continue to be pleasantly surprised with your own, um, regulated adult. Because it's so nice to have, [00:27:00] as you know.
Yes, inspire has a long way to go. She just turned one, so I know she's nowhere near being an adult yet, but she is coming along so nicely
like
when you start to see those results, it does easier to stay the course. Like when you start to see the evidence that. is gonna pay off in the end.
for sure. I. I love that. And of course, like you've already kind of been talking about it, but these feelings of doubt and panic and fear are real. Like we start to question, you know, are we doing this right? Is this working? Is the, like, I've certainly, um, sprint isn't the first dog that I've questioned. Is she in the right home?
Um, I, I had those feelings with my first border Collie smack too, that I thought for sure he would rather be. On some farm herding sheep all day. So like, I, I, I like to normalize those feelings, but [00:28:00] yeah, it doesn't always feel like rainbows and sunshine. Um, so, uh, how do you, how do you approach those feelings, um, and kinda work yourself through that?
Yeah, I think. I think it is. So it can be so hard. I, over the course of the time, even before I brought Spire Home and along the course with Spire, I've talked to a lot of people that aren't in agility that try to sort of commiserate with me. Like, I know puppies are hard and yada yada, yada, and I'm like, I don't think you understand.
Yeah.
Like the giant amount of expectations and hopes I have for this tiny creature,
Mm-hmm.
and I don't think there's anything, there's nothing wrong with the fact that we have these big, giant hopes and dreams, but it is really [00:29:00] important to keep it in check.
Yeah.
And it is really important to, and I, I guess this sort of goes back to what I, I said at the beginning that like, this is a lot to ask and we do everything that we can to sort of roll the dice and, and hope it works out the way that we want it to. But I do think it is important to really recognize that we are putting a lot of expectations. On this tiny, tiny little creature who didn't ask for any of it.
Right. They just wanted to be wild.
Um, but I will say that, so some of the thoughts that I have about, okay, but like, how do we actually handle this?
Yeah.
handle the drama? The biggest thing that I would say right off the bat is like, have a coach. Have a coach. Like, I would say that multiple [00:30:00] times because. One of the things that definitely helped me very early on with Spire when I was sort of in this phase of like, holy crap, like what did I bring
Yeah.
Was having people like you helping me and Sarah strumming. Who had a little, you know, more outside perspective and could say things that I don't, I don't even know if you two realize like how much those like little words of like, she's gonna be so great in sports one day. Or like, I had a dog like this and it worked out great in the end. Like just to hold up my belief when I was like in crisis basically.
Yeah.
So tremendously valuable. Um, and I also had a, some, [00:31:00] another coach point out to me like when things were sort of at their lowest low aspire, ask me questions that made me realize that I had sort of let my brain get into a bad place about why I was doing all of this. And. had sort of it without me even realizing it, my brain had started thinking that this will not be worth it if she doesn't end up being really fast and really competitive in agility. Um, so that's where I think having a coach and someone who can point help you see when, when your thoughts are kind of going off the rails in that, in those ways. Um, super, super helpful for keeping you on track. I also think, of course, there's a lot you can do to just cultivate your own self-awareness and your ability to coach yourself through like making a habit of journaling and really looking at what thoughts are coming up for you. being willing to face. [00:32:00] Those fears and speak them out loud. Like when I'm, I mean, I'm remembering the conversation that we had where I was like, I, I recognize that my brain is telling me that if she can't go to Home Depot today, she's never gonna do, she's never gonna be able to fly on an airplane. And there's actually no logical connection between those two things. So act so. Seeing that that's what the, what is in our brains and putting it on paper or speaking it out loud so that we can start to see how that is a completely ridiculous conclusion to draw is really, really helpful to just getting some distance and some extra neutrality from the drama that we're, that we're drawn into. that's super important as well. I. With my recent experience with Spire, I would say that like when you're raising a puppy, it is, it does feel a little bit [00:33:00] like a crisis. So there having some outside voices to help you stay on track with all of that stuff, I don't know that that can be like, that's so valuable.
I, I like that. I think that is excellent advice and, um, I'm happy to have played a small part in getting you into this place. Um, but that means that it, I think that I. Is really helpful to know that like none of us are, are existing here trying to solve this by ourselves. Um, you know, Sarah Strumming and I worked very closely in raising Sprint and I.
I, I, I owe her a lot. A a lot of, a lot of my trophies go over there because we, we do need to, we need to make that normal that we all have a support system. And you know, some days it was just about [00:34:00] like listening to me cry about these problems and yeah, that same, same thing. I had those same problems of she can't go to Petco.
How is she ever gonna go to a dog show? And guess what she is? She can sort of go to Petco and she doesn't really like it, but she can go to a dog show like so even more so that those two things are like not actually connected. It was just a small moment of panic. But you are now a part of that support system for so many people.
You have a brand new puppy program coming up and I think people are gonna be really excited to hear about that. So if they, can you tell us a little bit about your upcoming program and where can people go to learn more?
Yeah, so [00:35:00] my new program is called Limitless Agility Foundations, and the reason it is called that is because I am trying to share my. Broader perspective on what a foundation for success in agility really is composed of. Um. I, I mentioned at the beginning that I, it is absolute big. A big part of it is that training relationship you develop with the puppy and all of the component pieces that go into that, like the way they feel about food and the way they feel about toys and clarity of the language you develop with them. All of that rolls into. A really joyful relationship in training, and then also a joyful relationship with the sport of agility, which I think that we all really want. And also, it is much easier to reach all of your goals and you enjoy the process and when your dog is [00:36:00] enjoying the process too. I. Also really believe that we're not thinking hard enough about so much of the stuff that we have talked about that goes into raising a really stable, well-rounded dog, young dog whose needs are met, and who is really, really, really resilient and functional and from a mental and emotional standpoint. I think that's important just for their wellbeing, but I also think it's really important for their ability to function well in the environments we put them in.
Whether it is just like the, I want them to be able to think clearly at speed also like the, I need them to be able to navigate this crowded environment in order to get into the ring where we can do the part that we actually love. Um. I also, the other component of [00:37:00] it for me is what we were just talking about, like the, the human's skills, the self-regulation that we need to develop, the to manage our own arousal when we are maybe panicking about what this puppy is doing in front of us right now. I think that is so important. I, I found. I needed support to get through this last year with Spire, and I want to support people in that way. I want to make it easier to raise an agility puppy because as I said earlier, between all of the expect expectations we bring to the table, and then also that we bring home these puppies that have a lot of needs and are a little bit more sensitive, and maybe throw us some curve balls that we didn't expect. It's a hard, it's a hard thing to go through, and I think we could all benefit from having more support as we go through it. [00:38:00] And then the other piece of that, that the connection has become more and more clear to me is that one day you're gonna wanna walk into the agility ring. There's gonna be people all around watching you.
Maybe it's like a big final and you're gonna wanna be there. Look down at that dog and know that the two of you are here together and you're here for each other. And I believe now that that actually starts when they're itty bitty babies and they're maybe having a meltdown at TJ Maxx. And you have to look down at that puppy and remember that you're there for them. And I think that we can all, there's so much we can start to practice now as we go through this process of raising the puppy and, and making sure that we're putting their needs first and our values first. Above all of that external pressure will come through for us when we get to that competition phase of their career in ways that we maybe don't [00:39:00] realize.
Yeah.
So, yeah, so the way to find out more about the program is I go to my Facebook page, agility Odyssey, and just search that on Facebook, and there is a pinned post at the top of the page with more information about the program. If anyone wants to know more about that.
Awesome. And I will be sure to link that in the show notes for people. Sarah, I wish I had a puppy so that we could raise it together, because this sounds like a lot of fun and I'm excited for you.
I am really excited to help people raise puppies without actually having to have a puppy in my house.
Yes, yes, yes. That is the big benefit of being the support system. Is you don't have to have a puppy to work with puppies. Oh, this was a very great conversation. Thank you again for spending your time with us, and I hope to have you back again [00:40:00] sometime.
Thank you for having me. This was so much fun.
Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, I really appreciate some feedback. You can leave me a review, engage on social media or share this with a friend. I hope you'll be back to listen to my next episode. In the meantime, you can find all of my offers on my website, fx agility.com. Happy training.
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